All carefully considered comments are welcome.
I think I should do a second poll at some point, because it seems to me that some stereotypes are different depending on where and how someone was raised. In my life, the stereotypes were that women were more creative, dynamic, and capable of deeper emotion and a closer bond, and men were more strictly intelligent, narrow in scope, more agressive, and less capable of emotion and bonding.
I was raised in a family of divorced (and for some, gay) women, though, and a few of them had clearly bitter feelings about men that I inherited to some degree. I was always the exception for them, by name, but it was hard, as a kid, to separate myself out when they were talking about men in general.
This post was inspired by commenting to Resk, in his journal, about my poem Original Sin, which won me a significant (to me) poetry award in college.
I was raised in a family of divorced (and for some, gay) women, though, and a few of them had clearly bitter feelings about men that I inherited to some degree. I was always the exception for them, by name, but it was hard, as a kid, to separate myself out when they were talking about men in general.
This post was inspired by commenting to Resk, in his journal, about my poem Original Sin, which won me a significant (to me) poetry award in college.
I can accept that some traits are more common in certain sexes but I also really believe that many are heavily linked to your upbringing, environment, general individual personality, and so on.
I agree that I think most people have, as far as gender is concerned, a fairly standard upbringing, and gender stereotypes perpetuate there. When people tell me that their parents tried hard to promote equal time for male- and female-oriented behavior, that’s generally when I hear most about tom-boys and guys who played with dolls and such.
The most gender-atypical man I know was raised by a single mother with his dad nowhere in the picture. My ex-husband, raised by a single mom with his dad someone he spent time with occasionally, is very “typical male” ( that said, I do recognize that lots of men aren’t “typical men” to the point that ‘typical’ may be pointless.)
My daughter is very, very much a tomboy, and I think that I did help that long with very “there are no boy-toys and girl-toys, there are only toys, and you should play with what you find fun” type attitudes. If I had had a son, I would have been the same way.
There are times I miss having a girly-girl – see how much fun I had braiding Little B’s hair a week or so ago – but I have also raised a daughter who has barrelled her way through middle school without the typical “girl” hang ups of adolecense. She doesn’t much care if people don’t like her collection of graphic tee’s from the boys department of Target, the fact that eveyrone goes “oh my god, you OWN a skirt?” when she wears one, or the fact that she still takes her lunch in a metal Naruto lunchbox. She’s got friends of both genders (mostly male) and I figure she’s at least better off, psychologically, then I was during that tumultous time.
Having never raised a son, I hope that I would have done as well for him. I do think if I have, or had had a son, I would have paid more attention to gender roles in that I would make sure that he also got a good helping of realizing that all sorts of things were for men and women, including home repair, household cleaning, cooking, etc.
Sorry, I’ve hijacked your post with my rambling.
No no! Actually, I’m quite relieved – most people have a hard time commenting to my longer posts (which this is, even if it’s all poll).
My grandma did not treat my girl cousins much differently from us boy-cousins, except that at a certain age we couldn’t bathe together, at a later age the girls were told to stop taking off their tops when we were hiking, unless they were sure they were nowhere near a road, and at a still older age Mike and I had our own separate room. But we all had plastic guns and bikes, we had the same ‘liberty’ to roam about, and the same imperative to watch out for each other.
Oh, I guess the one concession I recall her making is asking us not to fight with the girls with all our energy, because we would get used to it, and when we got older we were likely to be much stronger than them, and thus hurt them.
My grandmother’s two (female) partners dug ditches and built fences, mowed the lawn and weeded the dock area, built workshops and rode motorcycles – I think I have a much healthier understanding of the possibilities for women than I do the possibilities for men.
I do think that boys need a role model, but they also need a -good- male role model. Boys that grow up with Dads who expect their wives to wait on them hand and foot or only do “manly” chores are obviously better off than boys who have no male role models at all, but raising girls to feel liberated and that men should be taking an equal share of everything aren’t going to do much good if they aren’t paired up with men who were raised the same way.
There’s a line of one of my favorite songs, Archetype Cafe, by Talis Kimberly, that goes “We challenged our daughters’ perceptions to change; we challenged our sons’ even more.” And I think that speaks volumes.
—
But even outside of possibilities for men when it comes to interacting with the changing possibilities for women, I do then men need to be shown that it’s OKAY to be a man, and like “manly” things. You can’t tilt the way you raise boys all the way over to the other side. All kids, regardless of gender, need to be raised at an equillibrium. Which I think is what you’re saying in your last paragraph – raising boys in a matriarchal family group is all well and good, but they need to learn what makes them male, too.
*shrugs* As I don’t have the history of having had even a crappy father in my life to consider, I can’t say whether it is better to have a “bad” one than no father at all. From my perspective, I’d rather have had none than a psychologically and emotionally unstable father who could have potentially taught me some lessons I don’t believe are right, know what I mean?
As some people have said, what is ‘male’? I’m not afraid to get my hands dirty or climb trees or whathaveyou, but I was taught that by women, not men.
95% of the time, I feel no ‘gender bond’ to men… which sometimes, to be honest, leaves me feeling jealous of women, who often have a sort of solidarity about them that I feel is beyond me. Most of my understand of what makes men “men” is … pretty lame, and nothing I want to celebrate.
Now, there have been times in my life when I’ve tried to combat that – I wrote a poem a long time ago about some of the positive things I’d like to see associated with men more often.
I think some of my big exceptions to that non-bonding experience come with some pretty exceptional men in my life, but even then, it feels less about satisfaction in some aspect of my gender, so much as a very limited subset.
That sounds kind of confusing, even to me, heh.
The realist in me says that we do the best we can for our kids with what we have.
The idealist in me writes the above mental masturbatory posts and ponders the implications of child rearing and gender expectations.
But I really do think it boils down to doing the best with what you’ve got, and hoping your kids turn out to be productive members of society. :P
*grins* For sure. And I do consider myself a pragmatist in many ways – we’re discussing wider theory here, and the implications on our lives, but it’s not like we can tailor the ideal environment. We just can’t – we pick our partners as best we can, pick the environment for us and/or children as best we can, and we do what we can with it all.
*grins* For sure. And I do consider myself a pragmatist in many ways – we’re discussing wider theory here, and the implications on our lives, but it’s not like we can tailor the ideal environment. We just can’t – we pick our partners as best we can, pick the environment for us and/or children as best we can, and we do what we can with it all.
The realist in me says that we do the best we can for our kids with what we have.
The idealist in me writes the above mental masturbatory posts and ponders the implications of child rearing and gender expectations.
But I really do think it boils down to doing the best with what you’ve got, and hoping your kids turn out to be productive members of society. :P
“95% of the time, I feel no ‘gender bond’ to men”
IAWTC
“95% of the time, I feel no ‘gender bond’ to men”
IAWTC
*shrugs* As I don’t have the history of having had even a crappy father in my life to consider, I can’t say whether it is better to have a “bad” one than no father at all. From my perspective, I’d rather have had none than a psychologically and emotionally unstable father who could have potentially taught me some lessons I don’t believe are right, know what I mean?
As some people have said, what is ‘male’? I’m not afraid to get my hands dirty or climb trees or whathaveyou, but I was taught that by women, not men.
95% of the time, I feel no ‘gender bond’ to men… which sometimes, to be honest, leaves me feeling jealous of women, who often have a sort of solidarity about them that I feel is beyond me. Most of my understand of what makes men “men” is … pretty lame, and nothing I want to celebrate.
Now, there have been times in my life when I’ve tried to combat that – I wrote a poem a long time ago about some of the positive things I’d like to see associated with men more often.
I think some of my big exceptions to that non-bonding experience come with some pretty exceptional men in my life, but even then, it feels less about satisfaction in some aspect of my gender, so much as a very limited subset.
That sounds kind of confusing, even to me, heh.
I do think that boys need a role model, but they also need a -good- male role model. Boys that grow up with Dads who expect their wives to wait on them hand and foot or only do “manly” chores are obviously better off than boys who have no male role models at all, but raising girls to feel liberated and that men should be taking an equal share of everything aren’t going to do much good if they aren’t paired up with men who were raised the same way.
There’s a line of one of my favorite songs, Archetype Cafe, by Talis Kimberly, that goes “We challenged our daughters’ perceptions to change; we challenged our sons’ even more.” And I think that speaks volumes.
—
But even outside of possibilities for men when it comes to interacting with the changing possibilities for women, I do then men need to be shown that it’s OKAY to be a man, and like “manly” things. You can’t tilt the way you raise boys all the way over to the other side. All kids, regardless of gender, need to be raised at an equillibrium. Which I think is what you’re saying in your last paragraph – raising boys in a matriarchal family group is all well and good, but they need to learn what makes them male, too.
No no! Actually, I’m quite relieved – most people have a hard time commenting to my longer posts (which this is, even if it’s all poll).
My grandma did not treat my girl cousins much differently from us boy-cousins, except that at a certain age we couldn’t bathe together, at a later age the girls were told to stop taking off their tops when we were hiking, unless they were sure they were nowhere near a road, and at a still older age Mike and I had our own separate room. But we all had plastic guns and bikes, we had the same ‘liberty’ to roam about, and the same imperative to watch out for each other.
Oh, I guess the one concession I recall her making is asking us not to fight with the girls with all our energy, because we would get used to it, and when we got older we were likely to be much stronger than them, and thus hurt them.
My grandmother’s two (female) partners dug ditches and built fences, mowed the lawn and weeded the dock area, built workshops and rode motorcycles – I think I have a much healthier understanding of the possibilities for women than I do the possibilities for men.
The most gender-atypical man I know was raised by a single mother with his dad nowhere in the picture. My ex-husband, raised by a single mom with his dad someone he spent time with occasionally, is very “typical male” ( that said, I do recognize that lots of men aren’t “typical men” to the point that ‘typical’ may be pointless.)
My daughter is very, very much a tomboy, and I think that I did help that long with very “there are no boy-toys and girl-toys, there are only toys, and you should play with what you find fun” type attitudes. If I had had a son, I would have been the same way.
There are times I miss having a girly-girl – see how much fun I had braiding Little B’s hair a week or so ago – but I have also raised a daughter who has barrelled her way through middle school without the typical “girl” hang ups of adolecense. She doesn’t much care if people don’t like her collection of graphic tee’s from the boys department of Target, the fact that eveyrone goes “oh my god, you OWN a skirt?” when she wears one, or the fact that she still takes her lunch in a metal Naruto lunchbox. She’s got friends of both genders (mostly male) and I figure she’s at least better off, psychologically, then I was during that tumultous time.
Having never raised a son, I hope that I would have done as well for him. I do think if I have, or had had a son, I would have paid more attention to gender roles in that I would make sure that he also got a good helping of realizing that all sorts of things were for men and women, including home repair, household cleaning, cooking, etc.
Sorry, I’ve hijacked your post with my rambling.
I agree that I think most people have, as far as gender is concerned, a fairly standard upbringing, and gender stereotypes perpetuate there. When people tell me that their parents tried hard to promote equal time for male- and female-oriented behavior, that’s generally when I hear most about tom-boys and guys who played with dolls and such.
I can accept that some traits are more common in certain sexes but I also really believe that many are heavily linked to your upbringing, environment, general individual personality, and so on.
I sometimes do and don’t take my size/weight/etc into consideration. Depends on the situation. I’m much quiter walking through the house than Amy, because I am sometimes overly aware of myself. Sometimes I stalk up to someone in a parking lot, looking to help with a spare tire, and scare the bejeezuz out of them unintentionally.
Since most guys I know now are shorter/smaller than me, I consider myself to be mildly atypical in those traits. My body size fits well with regards to my mothers side of the family, and I wasn’t that much out of place in school. So I never really gave a thought as to my body size in relation to others when I was a younger adult. Now when the topic comes up, I just claim to be “farm stock.”
I feel that I’m aware of the possibility of being mugged. However, this is less to do with the fact that I’m worried about it, and more of an overall tactical and situational awareness, in regards to my surroundings.
That’s funny, I wonder if I am quieter than lucy for the same reason.
As we talked about over IM, I too do not feel I’m likely to be mugged, but I am almost always aware of my tactical situation – strangers whose body language hasn’t been deciphered yet, lights, buildings and exits, that kind of thing.
Not something I consider in milder situations, but if I’m in the city at night (any city), it’s there in the back of my head.
That’s funny, I wonder if I am quieter than lucy for the same reason.
As we talked about over IM, I too do not feel I’m likely to be mugged, but I am almost always aware of my tactical situation – strangers whose body language hasn’t been deciphered yet, lights, buildings and exits, that kind of thing.
Not something I consider in milder situations, but if I’m in the city at night (any city), it’s there in the back of my head.
I sometimes do and don’t take my size/weight/etc into consideration. Depends on the situation. I’m much quiter walking through the house than Amy, because I am sometimes overly aware of myself. Sometimes I stalk up to someone in a parking lot, looking to help with a spare tire, and scare the bejeezuz out of them unintentionally.
Since most guys I know now are shorter/smaller than me, I consider myself to be mildly atypical in those traits. My body size fits well with regards to my mothers side of the family, and I wasn’t that much out of place in school. So I never really gave a thought as to my body size in relation to others when I was a younger adult. Now when the topic comes up, I just claim to be “farm stock.”
I feel that I’m aware of the possibility of being mugged. However, this is less to do with the fact that I’m worried about it, and more of an overall tactical and situational awareness, in regards to my surroundings.
Gender is a social construct. It’s what is culturally expected or anticipated in terms of masculine or feminine behavior. This is completely apart from sex, which is a biological matter.
I can be biologically female but exhibit masculine behavior. This may or may not indicate my sexual preference.
Also, I think what is generally considered “masculine” and “feminine” depends greatly on your own family culture, as well as the larger culture in which one is raised. While something like, say, ballet may be considered an effeminate behavior for a biological male to pursue here in the US of A, in Russia (at least prior to the influx of Western Culture) it would be considered nothing of the sort, and in fact, quite manly.
I have to challenge myself at times to reject gender biases, they are easy to gradually accept, particularly in a culture that is so puritanical.
What makes it most complicated is dealing with social reactions.
I am fortunate that I found myself in various accepting subcultures, in an area of the nation where it was acceptable for me to be who I wanted to be, and in fact was largely encouraged. There is something to be said for survival, and understanding what social expectations are in your part of the world.
Call it “passing for normal”, if you will, but I find nothing wrong with doing what you have to, when you have to.
What makes it most complicated is dealing with social reactions.
I am fortunate that I found myself in various accepting subcultures, in an area of the nation where it was acceptable for me to be who I wanted to be, and in fact was largely encouraged. There is something to be said for survival, and understanding what social expectations are in your part of the world.
Call it “passing for normal”, if you will, but I find nothing wrong with doing what you have to, when you have to.
Gender is a social construct. It’s what is culturally expected or anticipated in terms of masculine or feminine behavior. This is completely apart from sex, which is a biological matter.
I can be biologically female but exhibit masculine behavior. This may or may not indicate my sexual preference.
Also, I think what is generally considered “masculine” and “feminine” depends greatly on your own family culture, as well as the larger culture in which one is raised. While something like, say, ballet may be considered an effeminate behavior for a biological male to pursue here in the US of A, in Russia (at least prior to the influx of Western Culture) it would be considered nothing of the sort, and in fact, quite manly.
I have to challenge myself at times to reject gender biases, they are easy to gradually accept, particularly in a culture that is so puritanical.
I’d say I’m very atypical to the gender stereotypes in some areas, somewhat atypical in others, and completely typical in some. And I think that’s probably true of a lot of people (certainly most of my friends!) though the areas will differ wildly.
My brother still sometimes grumps about how girly his daughters (especially the younger one) are, when he tried not to raise them that way. But they’re still pretty imaginative – when they make up stories about princesses, the princesses still wind up doing the rescuing, which is just cool.
I’d say I’m very atypical to the gender stereotypes in some areas, somewhat atypical in others, and completely typical in some. And I think that’s probably true of a lot of people (certainly most of my friends!) though the areas will differ wildly.
My brother still sometimes grumps about how girly his daughters (especially the younger one) are, when he tried not to raise them that way. But they’re still pretty imaginative – when they make up stories about princesses, the princesses still wind up doing the rescuing, which is just cool.
Re: poll
I found it interesting that, in a quiz about gender-based stereotypes, you did not include “try never to be walking to my car alone at night in the first place” as an option for males.
By the way, excellent poem. I think you said something in a comment on‘s journal about think it hasn’t held up over the years, but I thoroughly disagree.
Thank you, it meant a great deal to me when I wrote it, and I still sometimes find it affecting me.
As a 6’2, 280 lb or so male with wide shoulders, it is very rare that I ever feel actively in danger. I’ve not heard of a guy trying not to walk alone to their car at night, but that is a good point, I should have put it up there.
Of all the results of the survey, I am most surprised by the final question. Surprised and pleased, I suppose.
Thank you, it meant a great deal to me when I wrote it, and I still sometimes find it affecting me.
As a 6’2, 280 lb or so male with wide shoulders, it is very rare that I ever feel actively in danger. I’ve not heard of a guy trying not to walk alone to their car at night, but that is a good point, I should have put it up there.
Of all the results of the survey, I am most surprised by the final question. Surprised and pleased, I suppose.
Re: poll
I found it interesting that, in a quiz about gender-based stereotypes, you did not include “try never to be walking to my car alone at night in the first place” as an option for males.
By the way, excellent poem. I think you said something in a comment on‘s journal about think it hasn’t held up over the years, but I thoroughly disagree.
Since the results are open to all, I simply wanted to qualify my answer to the first question. Not really interested in starting a debate on the subject.
I “generally agree with the standard ideas of “gender skills” in creativity, intelligence, flexibility, agression and emotion.” only in a very general sense. That is, I think that by a percentage of our population, a larger percentage of women make good nurturers than the percentage of men. I don’t think these generalities hold on an individual basis.
That is all.
*nod* I don’t think anyone in my friend’s group believes that all stereotypes fit all people all of the time.
The percentages of men and women who answered the survey and do or do not ‘generally’ agree with those ideas are very close, actually.
I think the biggest mistake people make about statistics is thinking that population-based statistics can be easily translated to an individual in that population. Similar to the vegas problem – a machine that’s set to pay out 1% of the time is no more likely to pay off the 100th time you pull it than the first time.
*nod* I don’t think anyone in my friend’s group believes that all stereotypes fit all people all of the time.
The percentages of men and women who answered the survey and do or do not ‘generally’ agree with those ideas are very close, actually.
I think the biggest mistake people make about statistics is thinking that population-based statistics can be easily translated to an individual in that population. Similar to the vegas problem – a machine that’s set to pay out 1% of the time is no more likely to pay off the 100th time you pull it than the first time.
Since the results are open to all, I simply wanted to qualify my answer to the first question. Not really interested in starting a debate on the subject.
I “generally agree with the standard ideas of “gender skills” in creativity, intelligence, flexibility, agression and emotion.” only in a very general sense. That is, I think that by a percentage of our population, a larger percentage of women make good nurturers than the percentage of men. I don’t think these generalities hold on an individual basis.
That is all.
I guess included in “appearance” is age, which I think is a significant factor as to whether I’m on heightened alert when someone is walking behind me.
Yeah, I would say that’s included.
Yeah, I would say that’s included.
I guess included in “appearance” is age, which I think is a significant factor as to whether I’m on heightened alert when someone is walking behind me.
You know.
There has been something about this that I wondering about.
1-age
and 2-where you grew up.
For some reason I think those two things are also a factor in your view/outlook/level of paranoia or caution.
just sayin’
Wondering as in, you wish I’d asked them in the survey?
Personally, I’m 30 and my pre-elementary years were spent on the west side of michigan in and around Portage, while the rest of my life was around the suburbs on this side of the state, Utica, Sterling Heights, Shelby and Farmington Hills.
However, I spent every summer of my life up to 16 in Portage, MI with my grandma and my cousins. That’s really where I feel I’ve done most of my growing and where my outlook matured most. The rest of the year was more or less spent waiting for summer to come again. *s*
It’s your survey. It was just extra facts that I would like to know.
Cause, at 34 I lived on the westside of Detroit. By the time I started walking to school, I was always told the don’t talk to strangers. yadda yadda yadda…not that anyone I know was ever kid napped, but I knew plenty of people that were mugged (this was the time for people to get their starter jackets and air jordons stolen)
So yeah, I know my level of paranoia is pretty damn high.
But I also know I’ve never been mugged.
(of course it could also have something to do with not having anything that a mugger might want…)
And yeah
I was one of those that answered.
“I try hard not to walk out to my car alone at night”
*nod*
My mom was always concerned that my father would try to come and take me, so from a very early age, I had those “lesson” coloring books and such, mcgruff the crime dog and all of that.
*nod*
My mom was always concerned that my father would try to come and take me, so from a very early age, I had those “lesson” coloring books and such, mcgruff the crime dog and all of that.
It’s your survey. It was just extra facts that I would like to know.
Cause, at 34 I lived on the westside of Detroit. By the time I started walking to school, I was always told the don’t talk to strangers. yadda yadda yadda…not that anyone I know was ever kid napped, but I knew plenty of people that were mugged (this was the time for people to get their starter jackets and air jordons stolen)
So yeah, I know my level of paranoia is pretty damn high.
But I also know I’ve never been mugged.
(of course it could also have something to do with not having anything that a mugger might want…)
And yeah
I was one of those that answered.
“I try hard not to walk out to my car alone at night”
Wondering as in, you wish I’d asked them in the survey?
Personally, I’m 30 and my pre-elementary years were spent on the west side of michigan in and around Portage, while the rest of my life was around the suburbs on this side of the state, Utica, Sterling Heights, Shelby and Farmington Hills.
However, I spent every summer of my life up to 16 in Portage, MI with my grandma and my cousins. That’s really where I feel I’ve done most of my growing and where my outlook matured most. The rest of the year was more or less spent waiting for summer to come again. *s*
You know.
There has been something about this that I wondering about.
1-age
and 2-where you grew up.
For some reason I think those two things are also a factor in your view/outlook/level of paranoia or caution.
just sayin’
So I feel inclined to open my marble-bag and show you my thoughts…
1.As a male, I generally disagree with the standard ideas of “gender skills” in creativity, intelligence, flexibility, agression and emotion.
>It’s always been hard for me to agree and accept standards in anything. I’ve always been different in most aspects of “general acceptance”. As a gay man, who has accepted that many things bare a stark difference in the world when you’re gay…Especially when you’re open about it.
2.I believe I am somewhat atypical in traits for my gender, but otherwise match.
Perhaps this is because I’m comfortable in who I am. Now, that level of comfortability will show differences, depending on my surroundings, but by and large, I am me.
I find that most adult men have a hard time freely displaying themselves and their emotional side. Typically, I do not. As a gay man, there are gender traits that are broadly accepted, such as totally queening out at any given moment. While I do this sometimes, it is not who I am.
As a man, mechanical inclinations and a take charge attitude are not only accepted, but sometimes expected. I’m mechanically inclined…but not always take charge. As a gay man, mechanical inclination is considered something of a fluke…or just butch.
3.I’m male, it is night and I am walking to my car. There is a woman in front of me, also walking to her car. I don’t particularly notice or change my behavior.
> Now, perhaps I’m thinking more into it than I should. I think had I noticed her speed up or something, I may have acted differently. But, perhaps the fact that 1: I generally don’t take notice of people, beyond a first look, and 2: I like men more, I wouldn’t have been inclined to take notice beyond there being a woman in front of me.
4.As a male, my height/weight/appearance is not a factor in my behavior.
> I’ve never really acted different because of these things. I don’t care enough about these things to let them influence my behavior. I don’t mean that in an apathetic way either.
5. It is night, and I am walking to my car. I am male, and I am always aware of the possibility of being assaulted/mugged
> I grew up in places where this was commonplace. Male or female. I’m not a big guy. When I had long hair, virtually everyone thought I was a woman from behind anyway. I’ve been yelled at and cat-called before and I’ve even been followed. I always think of bad things that could happen and always hope for the best things to heppen.
6. I have never been mugged or assaulted by a stranger.
> This was a tough question. I have been accosted, but I don’t know if I’d say “mugged or assaulted”. When I was 8 or 9, I was jumped and had the hell beat out of me by 5 other kids. I’ve been raped, but that was by my mom’s boyfriend. It really was rape too.
*nod* And that’s a big part of why I specified “from a stranger” – I know of many people who have been abused by a family friend or family or someone else they knew, and while I’m certain that makes a person less likely to trust strangers, I don’t think it is the same as having the direct experience of being jumped in public.
I’ve definitely gotten the crap beat out of me, by surprise, when I was a kid, as well. Kinda sad, the experiences we all share.
I have to say, I really missed reading your lj. I also have to say, I still think you’re gorgeous. *grin*
*grins* Thanks! :D Welcome back to the world of LJ, for however long it lasts before imploding :)
*grins* Thanks! :D Welcome back to the world of LJ, for however long it lasts before imploding :)
I have to say, I really missed reading your lj. I also have to say, I still think you’re gorgeous. *grin*
*nod* And that’s a big part of why I specified “from a stranger” – I know of many people who have been abused by a family friend or family or someone else they knew, and while I’m certain that makes a person less likely to trust strangers, I don’t think it is the same as having the direct experience of being jumped in public.
I’ve definitely gotten the crap beat out of me, by surprise, when I was a kid, as well. Kinda sad, the experiences we all share.
So I feel inclined to open my marble-bag and show you my thoughts…
1.As a male, I generally disagree with the standard ideas of “gender skills” in creativity, intelligence, flexibility, agression and emotion.
>It’s always been hard for me to agree and accept standards in anything. I’ve always been different in most aspects of “general acceptance”. As a gay man, who has accepted that many things bare a stark difference in the world when you’re gay…Especially when you’re open about it.
2.I believe I am somewhat atypical in traits for my gender, but otherwise match.
Perhaps this is because I’m comfortable in who I am. Now, that level of comfortability will show differences, depending on my surroundings, but by and large, I am me.
I find that most adult men have a hard time freely displaying themselves and their emotional side. Typically, I do not. As a gay man, there are gender traits that are broadly accepted, such as totally queening out at any given moment. While I do this sometimes, it is not who I am.
As a man, mechanical inclinations and a take charge attitude are not only accepted, but sometimes expected. I’m mechanically inclined…but not always take charge. As a gay man, mechanical inclination is considered something of a fluke…or just butch.
3.I’m male, it is night and I am walking to my car. There is a woman in front of me, also walking to her car. I don’t particularly notice or change my behavior.
> Now, perhaps I’m thinking more into it than I should. I think had I noticed her speed up or something, I may have acted differently. But, perhaps the fact that 1: I generally don’t take notice of people, beyond a first look, and 2: I like men more, I wouldn’t have been inclined to take notice beyond there being a woman in front of me.
4.As a male, my height/weight/appearance is not a factor in my behavior.
> I’ve never really acted different because of these things. I don’t care enough about these things to let them influence my behavior. I don’t mean that in an apathetic way either.
5. It is night, and I am walking to my car. I am male, and I am always aware of the possibility of being assaulted/mugged
> I grew up in places where this was commonplace. Male or female. I’m not a big guy. When I had long hair, virtually everyone thought I was a woman from behind anyway. I’ve been yelled at and cat-called before and I’ve even been followed. I always think of bad things that could happen and always hope for the best things to heppen.
6. I have never been mugged or assaulted by a stranger.
> This was a tough question. I have been accosted, but I don’t know if I’d say “mugged or assaulted”. When I was 8 or 9, I was jumped and had the hell beat out of me by 5 other kids. I’ve been raped, but that was by my mom’s boyfriend. It really was rape too.
men were more strictly intelligent, narrow in scope, more agressive, and less capable of emotion and bonding.
Not more intelligent. Differently intelligent. More spatially-oriented intelligence, in general, for example. More agressive, yes. But not less capable of emotion and bonding, except by culturally formed artificial barriers.
That was the stereotype I grew up with, not what I follow. The people in my life definitely don’t consist of the center of the bell curve, so I wouldn’t expect them to predictably conform to stereotypes, anyway.
I don’t consider myself less creative, or less capable of emotion or bonding than the women in my life. Those cultural barriers, though, can be pretty tough to get around sometimes.
I never thought for a second that you believed that way, shoe-buddy.
:D
:D
I never thought for a second that you believed that way, shoe-buddy.
That was the stereotype I grew up with, not what I follow. The people in my life definitely don’t consist of the center of the bell curve, so I wouldn’t expect them to predictably conform to stereotypes, anyway.
I don’t consider myself less creative, or less capable of emotion or bonding than the women in my life. Those cultural barriers, though, can be pretty tough to get around sometimes.
men were more strictly intelligent, narrow in scope, more agressive, and less capable of emotion and bonding.
Not more intelligent. Differently intelligent. More spatially-oriented intelligence, in general, for example. More agressive, yes. But not less capable of emotion and bonding, except by culturally formed artificial barriers.
In general, we wish it wasn’t so, but girls are better at, and care about, social interaction than boys are. Anyone who disagrees hasn’t hung out around a middle school any time recently, with an eye to observation rather than being trapped there as a student.
Girls think there aren’t enough rules, and make up new ones. Boys think there are too many rules, and ignore the ones the girls make up. I think both sexes have the capability for deep emotions and closeness, but that’s only two parts of the question.
I have come close to being mugged by a stranger; both of those guys got elbows to the crotch, and backed off. Funny about that. I was really sort of disappointed in one; I was pretty sure I could whup him if he’d tried again. The other one, not so much, but he realized other people noticed him bent over….it’s probably socially awkward to grab a girl, and then be bent over in pain seconds later.
In general, we wish it wasn’t so, but girls are better at, and care about, social interaction than boys are. Anyone who disagrees hasn’t hung out around a middle school any time recently, with an eye to observation rather than being trapped there as a student.
Girls think there aren’t enough rules, and make up new ones. Boys think there are too many rules, and ignore the ones the girls make up. I think both sexes have the capability for deep emotions and closeness, but that’s only two parts of the question.
I have come close to being mugged by a stranger; both of those guys got elbows to the crotch, and backed off. Funny about that. I was really sort of disappointed in one; I was pretty sure I could whup him if he’d tried again. The other one, not so much, but he realized other people noticed him bent over….it’s probably socially awkward to grab a girl, and then be bent over in pain seconds later.
I think some traits are more prone to be in one gender or the other, as hormonal balance has a significant effect on mood and disposition. There are some biological fatcors for this. Males typically are more agressive as their biological role is to protect the offspring (think redwing blackbirds). Women tend to be more nurturing as their biological role is to feed and rear offspring.
But these are primary dispositions. A woman can be agressive and a man can be nurturing. Predisposition is not destiny. It is up to the individula and environment to shape the character, and either steer away or reinforce biology. Neither way is wrong.
I agree, naturally.
I agree, naturally.
I think some traits are more prone to be in one gender or the other, as hormonal balance has a significant effect on mood and disposition. There are some biological fatcors for this. Males typically are more agressive as their biological role is to protect the offspring (think redwing blackbirds). Women tend to be more nurturing as their biological role is to feed and rear offspring.
But these are primary dispositions. A woman can be agressive and a man can be nurturing. Predisposition is not destiny. It is up to the individula and environment to shape the character, and either steer away or reinforce biology. Neither way is wrong.
There are psychological studies that show that the more 1) the more intelligent you are and 2) the more education you have the less you fit into your stereotypical gender role.
There are psychological studies that show that the more 1) the more intelligent you are and 2) the more education you have the less you fit into your stereotypical gender role.