Nice Guys redux
After a friend posted on FB about “nice guys”, I was going to write a post about what a misnomer it was, and how being self-absorbed, sycophantic and unable to empathize doesn’t make you nice, it makes you an asshole on par with the bad attitude boys… even if you open doors.
However, then I read a link to a “Nice Guys” post, and I wanted to put down my feelings about that.
It starts out really well, pointing out the differences between men who are, in her estimation, genuinely nice and “Nice Guys” as a category – people who use being nice, in their terms, as a badge of entrance to a woman’s naughty bits, and are outraged that someone could use any other factor for dating.
I am totally behind her on the idea that “Nice Guys” like these define their rejection by the “object” of their desire in terms of how messed up the girl/guy is, how they prefer a bad boy who will beat or abuse them vs their “Nice Guy” selves. Missing the point that disrespecting a person’s right to choose their partner is the opposite of nice.
However, it quickly devolves into a rambling 3-page diatribe that I’m pretty uncomfortable with. She uses three pages to lay out the “Nice Guy” in general, with lots of “they tend to not clean themselves, because they think being nice should over-ride being clean” (a very unlikely reason for a person’s hygiene issues).
As she delves into the nitty-gritty of sarcastic responses, inability to pick up socks, and the need for a “sympathy fuck”, I can’t help but think that she’s basing her definition on one person who was particularly terrible to her. And he was clearly a total tool, but I think she’s conflating a few different types of people that (surprise) sometimes Venn diagram together. Not every “Nice Guy” can’t dress themselves or bathe, and they don’t all use the same tactics. Not every “Nice Guy” is directionless.
All that said, I did enjoy her list of suggestions for people who think they might fall into that “Nice Guy” category. Most of them boil down to this: Stop assuming another person doesn’t have a perfectly valid and just right to their own opinions. This was particularly good:
“Don’t for the love of pete be Mr. Bad Touch. If she just squirmed over a few inches, it’s not because she wants you to close the distance.
Flirting without expecting a return on investment is ok. Active seduction when there are clear signs that it is welcome is ok. Trying to constantly slip in “innocent” gropes, innuendo, kisses, or anything else when she’s not interested is the adult equivalent of “are we there yet? are we there yet? how about now? how about now?””
When she said “You might think she was oversensitive, but you have no idea what it is like to be a woman in a world where we have to deal with unwelcome aggressive attention all the time” I wanted to say back, “That’s totally true, but even moreso, you just plain don’t know what it is like to be that person. Even if you somehow grok the former, a person’s life is way complicated – don’t assume you know how they should react to you.”
The most useful part of her post for all people, Nice Guy or not, was this:
Bring something to the table besides basic human decency. I’m not talking about money. Be responsible for yourself, your life, and your happiness. Have good things in your life that you want to share with a wonderful woman, rather than expecting her to fill the holes in your life.
EDIT: Pleased to see that in her redux (seriously, is the word that common?) she said exactly that, that it was a rant that came from a particularly bad experience. It’s better for that context.
We discuss the dreaded “Nice Guy” posts on OKCupid all the time. People will make posts in their journal about how there are no decent women, why women don’t like nice guys, why why why it is the fault of all women that they can’t get a date.
Most folks link to various posts from this site:
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml
My fave:
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
I always like this, too:
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02142004.shtml
“You don’t have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.”
I totally agree with that. I think that what’s usually missing from these comments is HOW you come to like yourself. As in, when you decide what you want, it needs to be INTERNAL as well as EXTERNAL. “I want to be respectful of other people.” “I want to be honest about my feelings and who I am.” “I want to be more self-confident”, and go after that behavior.
At least, that’s how I came to like myself, anyway. It does little good to say “I was a douche that hated myself, and now I’m a douche that loves myself”, y’know?
I think it is rough because so many of us can say “This is the behavior which is self-defeating” and why we might rant about People Without A Clue(TM).
There is no magical easy way to fix it. Nice guys, nice girls..it’s the same thing. Just happens that on dating/social networking sites, you hear more men going on about how women suck because they can’t find a date. *shakes head*
I wish there was some giant “Win” button to push to help people with their journey to be awesome people, but there isn’t. If it was easy, everyone could be happy.
Yeah, it’s hard to sit down with someone and realize that they’re not in a place to hear that kind of thing, and they’ll more than likely have to figure it out on their own.
Uuff~ God I started to dread that conversation. I know its a “safe” turndown so to speak.. But Man. I got So f-ing tired of hearing “You’re a nice guy but..” from women I was trying to develop a relationship with.
I can totally see someones point of there being “nice people” and “Guys who are “nice” and trying to get some A$$”.
And this line: “You don’t have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.”
is SUCH a truth that people ignore over and over again in their own lives. I see it constantly w/ a friend of mine who is just sitting around waiting for her Prince to come and make her life better.
I think that comes from concentrating on the words they’re using rather than what they mean, y’know? “I like you but I’m not interested” isn’t so bad, even if it is disappointing, and that’s often what girls mean when they say “You’re nice but”.
‘course, sometimes they mean “I have nothing to say to you but no, but I don’t want you to feel -totally- shitty, so I won’t say “You’re a jerk who makes me feel uncomfortable so of course I don’t want to date you.”” *grin*
lol hey I can understand “hey you’re a jerk! Get Lost!” Not that I got that more than a time or two while dating…
But ya, that line was usually the Kiss of Death to a dating scenario for me.
“…nice guy but, I like guy X better” <--lots
“…nice guy but, I like girl X better” <--happened
“…nice guy but, I don’t want to date anyone now” <-dated someone she met two weeks later for 2+yrs.. Not bitter.. no no not me...
“…nice guy but, yada yada yada”
I guess my question to this is then: What you would think is the proper response here when, in fact, the girl is not interested? Would you rather not be told that she thinks that you’re nice? Then all you wind up with is a rather blunt “I’m not interested.” What is correct?
Any card carrying decent human being is going to want to let you down as gently as possible, and acknowledging that you are a nice person is part of that. Saying it is supposed to take a bit of the sting out of the rejection by saying “You are not my type, but please don’t think that there’s something wrong with you.” Yes, it’s a cliche, but it’s also the compassionate thing to do.
I’m looking at the things you quoted above and I just don’t see the problem. #1 and #2 were the truth, and while it hurts to be on the receiving end, at least there was no dissembling. #3 was a kind lie, but the girl was trying to make it about her and not you.
My $02 worth. Please don’t take it as criticism!
Honestly, I >DO< think its as close to a "proper" response you're going to get in a dating scenario. In my case however, it got OLD after hearing it for.. a year or so of going on dates w/ people. it felt like a too often repeated replacement for "You weren't QUITE good enough, sorry!" It can grind down ones ego. I know it did mine.
I don’t lay blame on the women who used it on me, but its the PHRASE I grew to loathe.
Gotcha.
The last time I told someone I found them quite attractive their response was “That is a very kind thing to say. Thank you.” i thought he handled it graciously. Maybe that’s the way to do it – compliment them without expectation and see if they want to take it anywhere.
Rejection sucks, but it’s just part of the dating merry-go-round. As weird as people are, sometimes it’s amazing to me that people manage to find good matches for themselves at all.
The Ultimate “Nice Guy”
I think Joss really hit the Nail on the head with Dr. Horrible